Season 2: Episode 6: Is Elizabeth a turning point in World History?
with Deb Hunter
In this episode, Kelsie and Brooke sit down with Deb Hunter, an independent historian with a deep passion for Tudor history, to talk about the all important, Elizabeth I. Her reign marks the beginning of modern history as well as other major global shifts in both US and world history.
Kelsie Eckert 0:05
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Brooke Sullivan 0:54
Kelsie Eckert 0:55
Brooke Sullivan 0:56
Want to tell them on what's happening in today's episode
Kelsie Eckert 0:58
in this episode we are going to be talking about Anne Boleyn's daughter, the longest reigning monarch in English history at the time that she was a monarch. Elizabeth the first.
Hello and welcome to remedial herstory the other 50%, the podcast that explores what happened to the women in history class. Now here's your host, Kelsey Brooke Eckert and her partner in crime. Brooke Niva Sullivan.
Kelsie Eckert 1:32
In this episode, we are going to be asking the question, is Elizabeth the first a turning point in world history? In a lot of ways the answer to this is clear. And I think that this is an example where in history classes we can centralize women. Now Queen Elizabeth is significant in world history. She's one of the only women who has an era of world history named after her. So that makes her very significant. But she's a turning point, right? they designate an era to her. But beyond that era designation, she is sort of a demarcation point for modern world history. She is a turning point in English superiority. Her conflicts with Spain and the defeat of the Spanish Armada are also major turning points in world history. But I wonder and what I'm hoping our guest will help us discover is how might her reign also be a turning point in English history. How might her example as a woman be a turning point in how other women lead in the future? Like Queen Victoria, for example. This is a question that our podcast episode today will begin to answer. And probably your own investigations beyond this, and with students could elaborate and help you really answer the many ways arguably Queen Elizabeth The first is a turning point. There's also some ways in which she's pretty consistent in terms of her engagement in the Protestant Catholic conflicts that dominate English history. So this week on the podcast, I am so excited to have a guest with us, Deb Hunter, she's a Tennesseen and she is a scholar of Tudor history. And she runs all things Tudor, a wonderful blog and community space for Tudor fans to meet and connect. And she actually reached out to us and said you've got to do something on Elizabeth the first. And so without further ado, I'd love for Deb to introduce herself to everyone.
Deb Hunter 3:54
Hi, I'm Deb Hunter. I'm a USA Today best selling author, and historian from Atlanta, Georgia, and I'm also the owner of all things Tudor, which is my passion. So thank you for having me today.
Kelsie Eckert 4:08
I'm so excited to have you today. So you are from Tennessee. And I'm just curious how a Tennessean lady got interested in Tudor history.
Deb Hunter 4:19
It's one of those things that just happened. I had a very good female history teacher who involved me at a very young age started in at the age of 12. She got me interested in the Tudor's simply because with Mary, Elizabeth and Mary Queen of Scots, it was basically the age of queens. And she knew a curious girl that was involved in history would want to know more about female queens and females being in charge. So that's how it all came about. And one one good history teacher that was a female.
Kelsie Eckert 4:56
Women are just the best.
Deb Hunter 5:00
We really ruled the world and I can't figure out why no one knows that yet.
Kelsie Eckert 5:07
So our audience has learned a little bit about Queen Elizabeths mother. But we are going to talk in depth today about Queen Elizabeth. And our audience does know that Anne Boleyn her mother was beheaded by her father, which is just, you know, I think about some of the challenges that students, that young people have on their parents get divorced and deal with separation and all these things. I don't know how a human wraps their mind around dad killed mom. And it was totally legal. So Elizabeth is just fascinating to me in her ability to thrive despite trauma. And so I'm just curious if you could tell us a little bit about you know, she was young she was two when her mother was beheaded. So how did she feel about her mother? How did you feel about this whole dynamic that she is coming into the world with?
Deb Hunter 6:00
It's it's interesting as that she was extremely young, she wasn't even three years old. So the chances are, she did not remember it. However, she did notice that she went from being Princess Elizabeth to Lady Elizabeth. And she did have questions about that when she was younger and there were problems getting her household paid for. And she knew instinctively that she had been removed from the line of succession, as we call it, that she was considered a royal bastard. So that had to affect her.
Kelsie Eckert 6:38
Absolutely. In later in life does she mentioned her mother or anything about her mom's legacy,
Deb Hunter 6:45
she appears to have made mention of her mother more symbolically, I found reference to two quotes she made about Anne but I can't find the actual documentation, which is always so important. You know, hearsay is one thing, documentation is another. But she, when she died, the Chequers ring, and that is ch e qu. E R. S, had a picture of her and a woman on it. And that woman is considered to be Anne Boleyn, and she wore that her entire life. And there's been some discussion that it's her and Catherine Parr, who was Henry the 8th last wife, and had a huge influence on Elizabeth's education. But there's also a phoenix on the ring. And the Phoenix was one of the Boleyn family mottos one of there as we would call them today, logos part of their brand. And that leads a lot of art historians and historians to believe that Elizabeth worre this picture, this ring that had a picture of her and her mother her entire life.
Kelsie Eckert 7:53
So it seems based on your answer, and correct me if I'm reading into this incorrectly, that what I would think would be traumatic, maybe because she was so young, maybe wasn't traumatic, it just sort of like was the way it was mom was dead, and we move forward. And whatever she felt was either kept close to her chest or not, the documentation did not survive the Elizabethan period,
Deb Hunter 8:19
she had a very traumatic childhood. That's the best way to put it. You have to think first her mother was executed. Then Henry's next wife, died. She had Anne of Cleves come along next who Henry was only married to for six months, then Catherine Howard was executed. So her upbringing was definitely not normal. So that was just kind of the start of her life. And at one point, her sister Mary had her imprisoned in the tower. She was actually in the tower on the anniversary of her mother's execution, which was May 19th. We have to think how extremely traumatic this was on a young girl in her early 20s. Who knew that at the will of her own half sister, she might be executed. So she did not have a normal childhood by any stretch of the imagination. But it seems like she took all that trauma, and it made her a very political beam, a very political creature. She used all these bad situations, she made the best of everything.
Kelsie Eckert 9:28
How involved were her various stepmothers in her actual upbringing, or did she have a consistent like governess or something with her?
Deb Hunter 9:39
She had actually two governesses one was Lady Bryan. The second one was Kat Ashley that stayed with her for the rest of her life. Her stapling influence as a stepmother was Henry's last wife who was Catherine Parr. Catherine was literally the first woman to have a book published in English history. So that is something and, of course, Elizabeth is known to have written translations and sent them to Catherine for gifts. So she was a very gifted child with languages and translations. And it would seem that Catherine Parr had a huge influence on her education. And she was very, very well educated.
Kelsie Eckert 10:26
Now, correct me if I'm wrong, she was kept pretty separate from her half sister and her half brother, right growing up,
Deb Hunter 10:34
really she was fairly close to, they all had their households. They all had their own working households that took care of them. But she was so close in age to Edward the sixth, and they did have the same teachers. So they they were very, very close emotionally, because they were the same age and they were brought up in the same religion. Her half sister, Mary, who went on to become married first was 17 years older than her, had different religions. Of course, someone's 17 years older than you when you're a teenager is a huge difference. So they didn't really have that much in common, but she never did.
Kelsie Eckert 11:20
So King Henry the Eighth dies for a short while his only surviving son, the third born child, becomes King. And then he dies from an illness. Jane Grey becomes Queen for nine days is executed, because she won't give up her faith. I've had a lot of students who are passionate about their religion use her as a research project because she's a fascinating character in religious history. And so she's executed by Mary, when Mary comes in. what is Elizabeth life, like when her sister Mary is queen?
Deb Hunter 12:04
She's on tenterhooks, because depending on what Mary decides to do, again, Mary, at one point had her imprisoned in the tower, following Wyatt's rebellion. Because Mary's people, Mary's counselors believed that Elizabeth was involved. So she, as we would say now she walked on eggshells the entire time, Mary was Queen, because she never knew if, if Mary did have a child, Elizabeth would be completely removed from the line of succession. If something happened and Mary was gone, Elizabeth would be queen, so it had to be a very stressful traumatic time for her.
Kelsie Eckert 12:45
So Mary dies from cancer. Is that correct?
Deb Hunter 12:50
I think that would be a good guess. Okay, on what we know today, she had some false pregnancies, so more than likely, that was some form of cancer.
Kelsie Eckert 12:58
Okay. When I traveled and studied in England, as a undergraduate, I learned that Mary gets nicknamed Bloody Mary, but actually Elizabeth killed more people when she came into power. killed more Catholics when she came into power than Mary had. So both of these women are part of sort of the tumultuous Catholic Protestant sort of constant, what I see as an American, chaotic religious turmoil of the reformation, Elizabeth comes to power and what is that like? What do you have any insights into what that's like for her as she's, you know, her sister dies, and she's sort of been in hiding. And then, you know, walking on eggshells, like you said, Is this like her moment? Like, does she feel that or she's still very hesitant at this point.
Deb Hunter 13:44
She was very thankful, which, you know, today, we're told to be very gracious, have gratitude, when like, she had been told it looked like it was the end, that of course, it was treason, to predict the death of a sovereign. So she again had to walk on eggshells. But when she was told at Hatfield house that she was to be queen. She basically offered up a prayer of thanks right in front of everyone and said it was God's will, which of course that's what they believed in, and that she would would rule for the body politic. Which is interesting because that if you want to boil it down, that means that she looked at the people to help her rule. She felt kind of complicated not obviously, I'm queen everybody's going to do what I say but that shows the kind of monarch she was going to become.
Kelsie Eckert 14:46
So she makes a pretty interesting choice that Queen Victoria will later emulates, which is she doesn't get married, and she's young when she comes to the throne. She certainly could have gotten married. She's probably The most eligible Bachelorette in Europe at this point. So why does she make that choice? What is advantageous about that. There are certainly monarchs in other nations in Europe who get married and are able to keep their power. So Maria Theresa comes to mind. So why does she choose not to get married?
Deb Hunter 15:24
You have to wonder about that. And that's that's the big mystery, isn't it? She, of course there again, she saw her father, and all of her stepmothers. She saw Mary marry a foreigner, as he was considered a Spanish foreigner, Philip second. That didn't work very well, for Mary. She somehow knew to play the game, the marriage game that she could keep her power. And I love the way that she played man. To me, she's a very important role model because she never obligated her sexual man. If a man within Elizabeth's life is because she wanted him there, and I think that's so important for us today. She, if she wanted to pretend she was interested in a foreign Prince, it's because she was interested. She might answer their letters, but she played the game so incredibly well. And I think that's one thing she got from her mother, that she learned that art of courtly love from Anne Boleyn was known to play that and Elizabeth have pointed out on a grander scale.
Kelsie Eckert 16:35
So she does have relationships with a couple people, or at least rumored relationships or things like that. One of the people is Dudley, could you tell us a little bit about what we know about this relationship,
Deb Hunter 16:48
they grew up together, they had a lot of the same teachers, they knew each other for a lifetime. It's very easy to get attached to someone that has been loyal to you through all the trauma Elizabeth went to, and it's like someone in my group said he had to be the best looking man at court. So you know that that will always influence you. So I believe he was always there for her and she knew she could depend on him and to Elizabeth after the trauma of her childhood, her teens and her young adult years, knowing that someone was loyal to her no matter what, meant everything.
Kelsie Eckert 17:31
So I guess I'm curious like, what is known like when we say there was a relationship there? What do we mean by that? What went on between them? Other than being good friends and whatever?
Deb Hunter 17:43
We will never really know. I mean, we have those both sides, one yelling, she was surrounded by partiers all the time, she could never been alone with someone the other side's yelling, how could you be that close to someone, and, and not be that close to someone, I personally don't know if she would have risked her throne, because by marrying Dudley or having a relationship with him, she would have angered her counselors. So again, she was primarily a politician, as well as a monarch. So of course, that's what we want to believe but we have to think it's a different world. And women had a lot to lose for having relationships outside of marriage. So would she want to run the risk of losing a kingdom just for that? Okay, because women, women can have friends without having sex with them.
Kelsie Eckert 18:42
Deb Hunter 18:43
Yeah. And I know that shocks quite a few people, but it is completely possible.
Kelsie Eckert 18:50
This is mind boggling information.
Deb Hunter 18:55
I'm always shocked at people like you can't be that close. And yes, you can.
Kelsie Eckert 19:03
So someone who doesn't have friends. Shee also has a relationship with Essex and this is this is another rumored you know, relationship. Can you tell us a little bit about that relationship?
Deb Hunter 19:17
Well, Elizabeth apparently had a thing about tall good looking, charming man, but you know, really doesn't. So here comes Essex. Elizabeth is older, he's dashing. He's charming, he's impetuous. He's everything Elizabeth loves probably reminds her a lot of Dudley, but he makes a lot of mistakes in Ireland that really marred her, her rule that I think that was her last play at youth and beauty. So when she had Essex executed, in a way it was the death of her, her called in Her mind, because he stood for, for what she once had when she was young and could really play the game. So I think Essex affected her a lot more than we give the real credit for. Because he fed her ego. And that's very important when you're a monarch. That's that straw. Having someone that will support you. In that way.
Kelsie Eckert 20:23
I heard a rumor that or rather, I heard that there were rumors that she got pregnant at different points, and may have aborted those babies or lost those babies or something like that. First of all, which guy are we talking about when those rumors are in existence? And and then I guess secondly, is there any validity to any of those rumors? Are they just gossip, court gossip?
Deb Hunter 20:43
Oh, again, we have to take the source. And there was a young man who washed up on the shore in Spain, and said he was the child of Dudley and Elizabeth. And he gave them all this information. That seemed to be true. But even the Spanish decided it wasn't true. And they were looking for anything to undermine Elizbeth. So I think you have to look at the sources and the documentation. Was it written from a Catholic point of view? was it written from a Protestant point of view, you have to look through that and dig through it, and you have to glean what you see. And again, based on what I've, I've read, and a lot of academics, they just feel like, these are rumors that we're trying to destroy Elizabeth,
Kelsie Eckert 21:31
right? Because when Henry divorces Catherine of Aragon, the Spanish are not thrilled, the pope is not thrilled. This is like England is heathens and the fact that Elizabeth is this Protestant Queen of England, the daughter of Anne Boleyn nonetheless, right? So that's kind of interesting that the Catholic Spanish who have every reason to dislike Elizabeth the first don't even buy into that rumor. Okay, that that puts a lot of like weight, sort of against those rumors. All right. And that seems to be a pattern in English history, people showing up with claims, you know, against the throne in various ways that kind of make no sense dead people who like somehow come back to life. And, you know
That's so true. And you have to take into account to Elizabeth was a female. So they wanted to do anything to discredit her, get rid of her span, her reputation, and they, they would say anything.
So tell me a little bit about her reign. She, I mean, this is a this is a era of world history, the Elizabethean era that is named after her. So it is clearly a high point in English history. It leads to the rise of the English empire that we know from World History. So tell me a little bit about her reign. And what made her such an incredible monarch, despite the fact that people wanted to take her down.
Deb Hunter 23:01
She was everything that you're about. She was a monarch, she was an empress, she was politician. And she was a woman. She took a very, again, a very traumatic upbringing, and a very small kingdom, and she was threatened internally and externally, but her own blend of shrewdness, courage, and majestic set display inspired loyalty in a people and it helps unify England against their foreign enemies, and the adulation of her people, which is something that she openly courted another thing she courted, it bestowed upon her lifetime. And still, her legacy lives on with us today. And it was carefully crafted by her, you know, the Tudors were known for what today we were called branding. They were very into the pageantry. They were into the symbols, they were into how to make themselves immortal, basically. And Elizabeth did that. And she took political symbolism, which of course had a lot of weight for that era, and she turned herself into a figurehead. She upheld authority and made critical decisions and set central policies in her country for the church and the state. And in the latter half of the the 16th century. It is called the Elizabethan the new age, just like you said, and it's an entire era distinctively stamped, by female ruler, and is the start of our early modern studies today. So she has left a lasting impression with which is remarkable for a woman 500 years ago. I think it was best put by Pope sixtus the fifth. She's only a woman, only mistress of Ireland, and yet she makes herself feared, by all.
Kelsie Eckert 24:54
Deb Hunter 24:55
Kelsie Eckert 24:57
There are other people who have claims to the throne, one of them is her cousin Mary, Queen of Scots. Is that correct that they're cousins?
Deb Hunter 25:06
Kelsie Eckert 25:07
Mary's up at Scotland and so there's a great film that just came out about these two women in their rivalry. But I'm curious about this relationship and this is a kind of an interesting, there are assassination attempts. This is like, you know, this makes great film and great narrative. So tell me a little bit about this relationship with her cousin Mary, Queen of Scots who's rolling just to the north of her.
Deb Hunter 25:35
It's really like you say you, you can't make things like this up. Mary became queen only a few days after she was born. She was the queen of France for a while, she had everything basically handed to her on a silver platter. Unlike Elizabeth, she followed her heart and she made some very impetuous mistakes, which she ended up paying for with her life. She firmly believed that she was the the actual Queen of England, that didn't go over real well. And because of Elizabeth's stake in England, there, there was a spine network developed because there were so many plots against Elizabeth's life, that actually the MMSix today is descended from the spy network set up during the Elizabethan age. So Mary and Elizabeth had a very competetive relationship. I think they admired each other from afar. I know Elizabeth, would ask courtiers if they thought she was more beautiful than Mary because Mary was supposedly the most beautiful woman of the time. And Elizabeth didn't like that. Elizabeth wanted to be the most beautiful woman of the era. That was a good way to stay in Elizabeth's good graces was to tell her that she was more beautiful than Mary. So it was personal. They were relatives, but they were very wary of each other.
Kelsie Eckert 27:04
How does she eventually catch Mary? And Mary's beheaded at Elizabeth's request after being imprisoned for a very long time? How does that come about?
Deb Hunter 27:13
Mary is caught in a network of plot, combating templot. Her coded messages finally call for Elizabeth to be overtaken in one sentence to keep it brief. and due to that Elizabeth's counselors felt that it had to come to an end, and she put off signing the document. And again, her own father had her mother executed, she did not want the symbolism of executing an anointed Queen, that she later said she was full of it in the document, you know, typical Elizabeth politician, but she did have it down because she, there were concerns for her own life. So whether it was right or wrong, she felt if something had to be done
Kelsie Eckert 28:06
was Elizabeths life genuinely threatened to do you feel like?
Deb Hunter 28:13
That's a very good question. And there's a lot of information that says, Mary was baited. And that she was, these were instigated to make her to have the outcome that Walsingham wanted to have. And Cessile wanted to present to Elizabeth to say, oh, here's what Mary's done. She's, she's call for an uprising. So, you know, there again, we don't know, we weren't there. And it's gonna come from two different sides. So
Kelsie Eckert 28:50
what's the advantage to having somebody else sitting on the Scottish throne?
Deb Hunter 28:56
Well, the advantage was that Mary's son was brought up Protestant. And his counselors were Protestant. So you wouldn't have the, the plotting against Elizabeth if his mother was gone? sadly enough, supposedly, James didn't grieve when his own mother was executed.
Kelsie Eckert 29:18
Deb Hunter 29:19
He knew that if he played his cards, right, he'd be the monarch of Scotland and England, and that had never happened before.
Kelsie Eckert 29:26
Right? Because that Elizabeth leaves since she didn't have heirs, left it to him. Right?
Deb Hunter 29:32
Kelsie Eckert 29:34
Mary, Queen of Scots son.
Deb Hunter 29:36
Kelsie Eckert 29:37
I know. I haven't made that connection before. Okay, that's interesting.
Deb Hunter 29:41
So Mary, if you want to say she got her revenge, she did. So, but it's just so full of political intrigue, and again, you really can't make this kind of stuff up. It's just better than any movie or even soap opera. we'll ever see, it was happening, it was real life.
Kelsie Eckert 30:03
Wow, that's fascinating. This podcast is sponsored by our patrons, patrons get access to behind the scenes regular RHP gear, bonus episodes, insights into our research, lesson plans before everybody else and more. Brooke, read off these awesome people.
Brooke Sullivan 30:22
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Kelsie Eckert 30:31
Woohoo! do you know what's so awesome about this particular group of people?
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very few of them are actually educators. These are badass people who care so much about equitable and inclusive education that they are willing to put their money where their mouth is
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Yeah, so cool. You too can become a patron of the remedial herstory project by heading over to www.patreon.com and becoming a sponsor of the remedial herstory project for just $5 a month. That's it. That's one latte.
Brooke Sullivan 31:08
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Kelsie Eckert 31:13
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You could also buy condoms for more than that. you could reduce reproduction. For less than that.
Kelsie Eckert 31:31
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Kelsie Eckert 31:54
It does seem though, despite maybe some times where Elizabeth has the wool pulled over her eyes by her advisers that she is a pretty astute politician herself. I have heard that she one of the things that makes her incredible is just that she brings the right people in to advise her but maybe that's not accurate. So can you tell me a little bit about what makes her so astute as a leader?
Deb Hunter 32:20
She definitely brought the the right people into the right places. There's, there's no doubt about that. When you look at Francis Drake, you look at Cessile, her primary advisor, her Privy Council, everyone was in the right place. She promoted what we've called commoners because they were loyal to her and she knew they were the right people. So she didn't just leave it based on birth. In a way she was very American. She gave people a chance if they had the skills to do what she felt they needed to do
Kelsie Eckert 32:57
militarily, Elizabeth is Queen during a huge turning point in world history. Where the Spanish Empire is beginning its decline, long decline, and the English Empire is starting to rise. And one of probably the most significant moments in world history is the English defeat of the Spanish Armada that is sailing from Spain to take England back to Catholicism from the evil heathen Elizabeth, woman leader. So I know that she's probably not like actually commanding a naval ship but this is a huge military victory for her. Can you tell us a little bit about her role in that and and what this did for her
Deb Hunter 33:49
like you say it was a real turning point in English and world history in 1588, the Spanish Armada did set out the greatest Navy in the world. They're going up against this small island nation. And it's not even the entire island. It's just simply England at that point. Elizabeth prepped her people because of her guidance, it was like a new country, she wanted to be seen in a new light in a new way. So she brought this freshness to them to use a modern day tournament was very nationalistic. And when the winds blow the right direction, and the Spanish Armada was defeated. Absolutely no one in the world could believe it. So all of a sudden, Elizabeth, like you say has made her reign into the start of an empire
Kelsie Eckert 34:43
almost literally like it seemingly biblical in you know, divine inspiration. It like, like it, it's natural, almost what happened.
Deb Hunter 34:52
Isn't that just the wildest thing. I mean, you read about it, and it's like, okay, the Spanish navy They knew what they were doing. Why did they not know that these storms were on their way? Did they believe that, you know, this was just going to be a route that they were going to beat the English, didn't matter what the weather was, im not a naval historian. But surely they had enough experience to know that the storms were on the way. So they must have thought they had enough power to override them. But it didn't happen. And we have the Elizabethan age because of that. So just one of those things in history, like you say, it's just changed everything.
Kelsie Eckert 35:38
And I don't remember the numbers. But I want to say, you know, there's hundreds of ships that leave Spain and dozens of ships that come back, I mean, just devastates the Spanish fleet, and kind of a fluke of nature as well as like military acumen. So so incredible. I think when I think of Elizabethan era, I think of Shakespeare, I think of her investment in the arts and culture and things like that. Why do you feel like her, Why do you feel like her legacy endures
Deb Hunter 36:07
the optimism, the sheer optimism she brought to her people, they were unified, they felt like they were, they had an identity now, they had made an impact on history. They were powerful. And of course, when people have food and money, they're, they're happy. I mean, that's human nature, whether you're in England, Spain, America. So all of a sudden, English had everything in the world going for them, quite literally. It was all because of their queen
Kelsie Eckert 36:39
in US history. Elizabeth, I feel like should be a starting point for us history. And I know from our previous conversation, you agree. So can you explain why she's so important to American history specifically?
Deb Hunter 36:53
Thanks for asking that question. In 1585, Sir Walter Raleigh's started a small colony that he named after Elizbeth, the virgin Queen, he named the colony Virginia. And that is our state of Virginia today. So our roots as a country, start with the reign of Elizabeth 1 of England. And I think that's a discussion for another day, just the influence she had even on our own country, not only England, and Great Britain, but America as well. And to think that it was a female, it makes it even better.
Kelsie Eckert 37:35
Yeah, who funded and endorsed and pushed for these expeditions, Absolutely. So cool. Typically, in Middle High School course, history is taught. It's a survey class, the Elizabethan era is a lifetime. And yet, sometimes, you know, depending on the course and the teacher, you might cover the Elizabethan era in a single class period. And so I'm curious where you think Queen Elizabeth goes in a survey course in high school, and what do you think is essential that that teachers convey to students,
Deb Hunter 38:10
the sheer power she wielded, she had her, there was a monarch than the Privy Council, and then parliament. And she helped sway over everything, cause she was the monarch. But they still had their input. But she had such political acumen that she was easy, she could easily persuade them to do what she wanted or get the right people in place, again, that would say, we need to do this instead. So she was smart enough to know the direction she wanted to take like today, if you have a female CEO that comes in and says, well, let's, let's try this. So that's kind of Elizabeth's legacy. She, she gave us an example, before we had examples of what women could do.
Kelsie Eckert 39:02
So powerful. I was speaking with another historian about another female monarch in history. And one of the things she was saying that I thought was fascinating, is that democracy Well, I'm a big fan of democracy, actually, limited female leadership opportunities. And monarchies. There was, you know, despite, you know, the sexism of like, if you have an older brother, you can't, you know, be queen or whatever. Or if you have a brother, period, you know, the, there still was a path to leadership for women. And nobody doubted. I mean, they might not have liked having female leaders. That's a whole different issue. But they didn't doubt that Elizabeth did have a path to the throne, right? She did. There's a line of succession. It's built into law. And, and I just thought that was a kind of an interesting concept that when we started electing officials, and we made our electorate entirely male. And the leadership positions were designed for men. It actually, you know, I'm pro democracy, but democracy cut out women in the process. I think that's just a fascinating, fascinating concept. But I do think that bias, biases our government in our instruction about government, our instruction about female leadership, because it it makes people think that women never lead. And it's like, no, there was lots of female leadership in time. And democracies just needed a little bit of time to figure out how to include female leaders, right? Like, and she's just such a fascinating example of a powerful woman who came to the throne legitimately, although there was lots of bloodshed. But legitimately came to the throne. And you know, I think we do students a disservice to not explain to them that, that those paths did exist prior to democracies, and that women were skilled that errors were named after them, that they thrived, you know,
Deb Hunter 41:12
exactly. Elizabeth , Victoria, they have ages named after them. And that was a time before women could vote, or pretty much own property. So there's a lot to be said, apparently, there's over an hour or so. She's an incredible role model for us today.
Kelsie Eckert 41:34
Well, Deb, I am so incredibly grateful to you for coming on the podcast informing me about this incredible woman who I feel like I've learned a lot from you. And I'm just so grateful for your time. I really want to encourage our listeners to head over and check out your blog, become part of your Facebook group and join the community there. It's a thriving community. Would you mind telling everybody a little bit about everything? tudor all things tudor?
Deb Hunter 42:01
If it's if you just go to Facebook and in your search, put in all things tudor, you'll pull up the group, you'll have to answer a couple of questions. But we have almost 20,000 people that love tudor history. And we do often tie it into things happening today. How it influenced arts it influenced, like you say, women, when women didn't have anything for hundreds of years, we can look at these queens from the Tudor era. And what they taught us. I am on Twitter and Instagram, I'm not quite as active because the Facebook group keeps me fairly busy i'll say that's like a full time job. And that it's a lot of fun. So yeah, drop by and say hi, and join in because there's always something going on in there.
Kelsie Eckert 42:54
Well thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it.
Deb Hunter 42:56
Well thank you. This has been great and I love what you're doing and I wish you all the success in the world with it.
Thanks so much for listening to remedial herstory the other 50% Please Subscribe rate and review wherever you listen to your podcasts to bring more voices to the conversation. We'd really appreciate that effort. Until next time
Deb Hunter is a historian, author, and owner of the Facebook group and Blog All Things Tudor. Her latest book, Magic and Mystery in Tudor England, is available now. Deb writes under the name Hunter S. Jones on Tudor history.